The Clean up!
Question1: Does sinning or not sinning have anything to do with receiving salvation or keeping salvation? Thanks, MD
Question2: Does Salvation depend on a Christian allowing God to clean themselves up? Thanks, DC
Is it True? Can we ever STOP Sinning? Does God Really Save us ‘as is’ and then Clean us up or is there a PROCESS that is supposed to take place at ‘Salvation’ that does the cleaning up? In the Churches today its unanimous in favor of COMING as you are and God Cleaning you up later. This has resulted in a Gospel that condones all sorts of immoral behavior (including child molestation!) and a system whereby the Preachers CANNOT warn or admonish anyone about their sinful conduct. Since sin is the foregone conclusion from the start (no one can ever stop sinning!) Converts come to Christ Pre-disposed to fail. Therefore the effects of Repentance, Faith and Grace are Neutralized and the soul remains in Bondage to sin. Instead of breaking free of the sin and CLEANING oneself of its effects, the sin is COVERED by a Confession of ‘sinfulness’ and Trusting that Jesus Obeyed on your behalf.
Somewhere along the line, Biblical Repentance has been thrown to the wind. NO ONE seems to understand HOW it works or WHAT exactly the Bible says about it. Although the Process is Simple: ‘Repentance is PROVEN by DEEDS!’ (Acts26:18) And the ONLY path to God, (Acts20:21) It has become a mere ‘going through the motions’ rather than a CRISIS OF CONVICTION. In early times we see people under Gospel preaching falling into this Crisis and Seeking after the CLEARING that comes Only through godly sorrow for sin. (2Cor17:10-11) Their conversions were based on the Solid Fundamental truth of the Bible: “Let everyone who names the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity!” (2Tim2:19) It was a through Redemption and equally through Cleaning. (Fruit that remained resulted)
Since Faith comes by hearing through the Word of God, this MUST have occurred mainly because of the PREACHING of the times. WITHOUT question these early ministers were NOT saying things like:
‘You can never stop sinning’, ‘God does not expect you to stop sinning before or after salvation’ ,
‘Salvation does not depend on a person stopping willful sin’, or Suggesting that Zacchaeus the repentant tax collector came to Jesus ‘In his sins’! Or ANYONE in the Bible for that matter. NO WHERE in the Biblical record can you find such things recorded or implied and early history substantiates the Biblical evidence one hundred percent!
Even the casual observer must admit that there has been a radical departure from the preaching of Bible Repentance. When Child Molesters can come into the Kingdom ‘as is’ WHAT more Proof do you need? How is anyone going to come OUT of their sin, at Repentance or otherwise, when the Pastors are telling them that everyone sins all the time (including the pastors) and no one can do anything to amend their behavior? Again, WHERE in the Scripture record are such things recorded? God has Ordered Repentance and Faith to BRING man OUT of his sins! The PROCESS is CLEARLY Explained and Shown in Scripture. How the Pastors can get it so wrong is beyond reason.
1) The Crisis of Conviction, (Holy Spirit convict of sin, righteousness, judgment)
2) Godly sorrow for sin, (Contrition, brokenness, the breaking of the will)
3) Zealousness to be CLEARED of all wrong doing! (The forsaking, STOPPING of sin!)
4) Vindication before God, (Mercy granted, forgiveness experienced, Peace & Joy)
5) Revenant Fear of God. (Sin forsaken because it Offends God)
This leads to a Faith WORKING by Love, Cleansing and Purifying the heart of sin and a COMPLETE Reformation of Conduct, not a ‘partial’ clean up. Bible Faith that Saves the soul is Victorious over sin, the flesh and the devil. The WHOLE Purpose of Redemption is to DESTROY the works of the devil! Not leave you in bondage to sin and clean you up later! Certainly you Grow and increase in the Grace of God, but NOT with sin as the FOREGONE Conclusion! RIGHTEOUSNESS is the outcome of Salvation, not sin.
Your Pastors are Dead Wrong and what they preaching is DANGEROUS to Souls.
The Questions posed went out to various denominations and had to do with Stopping sin. You will find the Pastors and teachers who answered to be unanimous in favor of ‘continuing’ in sin. (before and after salvation!) NONE of them could say that the sin MUST Stop, either in the process of Repentance and godly sorrow, (Which no one mentioned.) or eventually somewhere down the road in the ‘clean up’ process. Many of them Site Bible Characters as coming ‘as is’ in sin, without a single mention of the circumstances surrounding each case or the person in question forsaking their sins. As we pointed out before, the Definition of the words has been changed. When they use terms like ‘Repent or forsake’ they are NOT talking about stopping anything! Remember, the sin Continues, that’s a given with these ministers. Therefore no matter WHAT is said about Obedience, Growth or faith it remains OUT of line with the Bible
The following three answers are from a Nazarene Doctor on the issues we described:
Hello,
the sin issue is one that the bible covers extensively. Simply put we were all
born in sin with the sin nature and are in need of a Savior, which is why Christ
died on the cross and rose from the grave and ascended into heaven and is now
interceding for us. It is the Holy Spirit who woos us to Christ. When we repent
of our sins He graciously forgives us of all sins and puts our sins under His
blood never to be remembered against us again. We do not believe in a "sinning"
religion; however, we do believe that if a person who is born again commits a
sin he or she has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, and can ask for
forgiveness and He again graciously forgives. We also believe that a person can
be filled with the Holy Spirit and live above sin: in other words does not have
to continue to live in sin. Hopefully this short statement is helpful to you. I
trust you have talked with your pastor about this subject more deeply.
God bless you.
Carlton D. Hansen
Carlton's Design
Hello,
I do not believe a Christian can "lose" his salvation as if by some accident but
I do believe a Christian can walk away from God by turning his back on God and
returning to a sinful life. The scripture speaks explicitly about this kind of
experience; further, the scripture speaks clearly about not continuing in a
sinful life as a Christian. Having said all of this, though, the repentant
person who has turned away from God can still come back home, just as the
Prodigal son did and the Father stands with open arms to welcome him back him.
That story tells us that the Prodigal "came to his senses" when he realized he
had sinned so deeply. God is a loving God who cares deeply about people. I am
glad that He forgives no matter how deep the sin.
Carlton D. Hansen
Carlton's Design
Hello, :
Jesus said, “Come unto me all you that are burdened and heavy laden and you will
find rest for your soul.” The scripture implies over and over that this is the
way people come to Christ: the thief on the cross, the rich young ruler,
Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, Matthew the tax collector, all of the disciples and a
whole host of others. Jesus called them from where they were to follow Him and
their lives were transformed.
Carlton D. Hansen
Carlton's Design
Response: The first comment is exactly what we mean by speaking in the CODE. He uses all the correct jargon, repent of our sins, don’t believe in sinning religion, can live above sin and not continue to live in sin. Sounds good, right? Problem is the sin NEVER stops. It’s under the blood, never remembered against you, but underneath, it continues. (already forgiven! Strongly implied) Also the reference ‘can be filled with Spirit suggests something optional, not mandatory. Why? Because salvation is by Grace through faith, not of works, so everything is ‘should be’ NOT Must be. |
Continued Response: The next two comments are more revealing. Although a ‘Christian’ can walk away from God (he doesn’t like the term lose.) he can always come back just like he came in the first place. IN HIS SINS! But he and all these pastors fail to see the fallacy of their reasoning here. They are unanimous in the coming ‘as is’ in sin, but some of them (like this guy) think you can jeopardize your salvation by sinning afterward. BUT you can Come Back in the SAME sin that disqualified you! Like the Prodigal, he sites. Even though the Prodigal was coming back to the Father OUT of the Pig Pen of sin, not still wallowing in it! Is t here Biblical support for coming ‘as is’, he says ‘YES!’ Matt11:28-29, the Take My Yoke Passage. How can the YOKE of Obedience imply coming to Christ as is? And the others he sited, Nicodemus didn’t come repenting, but asking questions and the rich young man went away sad, not repenting at all. The guy either doesn’t know his Bible or has such a twisted understanding of repentance that ‘anyone’ is saved by merely acknowledging Christ. |
The following comments from several Nazarene pastors and teachers will shed a great deal more light on this dilemma. They may hold to a so-called holiness doctrine and tradition, but preaching it they are not.
Hello,
Being saved does not depend on a person stopping all willful sin. That
would be impossible since the act of rejecting Christ is the unpardonable sin
and until you accept Christ and enter into the new covenant you are a sinner.
For all other sin there is forgiveness with repentance (turning away from the
sin) given by Jesus who is the judge. So if you really want to know the answer
to that question you should ask God who will judge the living and the dead. All
I can do is point you to some scriptures that will bring you both assurance and
fear. Sorry about the last message. Several answers to your question: 1. First
is the matter of chronological order. God does not expect us to stop sinning
first, and then seek salvation. If that were the order then no one would
get saved because we are powerless over sin. We first seek God's salvation and
as a result we receive God who has the power to help us overcome sin. Second,
God does expect us to stop sinning after we are saved. This may take some time,
especially with nagging sins or addictions. God is patient and will help us get
the job done. Third, you used the words "willful sinning." That wording is
critical -- willful sinning is much more than unwillful sinning. Willful sinning
is rebellious and deliberate. Continuing to willfully and deliberately sin will
in the long run squelch the Holy Spirit in our lives which is extremely
dangerous. Hopes that helps. By the way, which "Dan" are you?
Pastor Don
Response: The sin does not Stop before or after Salvation. When does it? If the Process of godly sorrow, Repentance and clearing as described in 2Cor7:10-11, doesn’t cause a cessation of the sin, NOTHING will. If the Passion and Desires are not Crucified with Christ in the initial experience of Salvation, they will not be later. They will only gain in intensity as the person concludes they are forgiven by God and no longer held accountable for their sin. (which won’t be long under this kind of preaching!) All these pastors seem to think that no one has the ability to stop anything until they come to Christ and Receive His Spirit. But in the Bible, the Spirit is NEVER Given to a defiled heart. The Clean up has to take place BEFORE the Spirit can indwell. The heart MUST be Clear of contamination, sin and ignorance or the New Birth Cannot take place. Surly the Power to overcome the flesh comes from Christ but in Repentance the sin Stopped or else Mercy was never granted. God’s Patience extends to man in Repentance, not in toleration of his continued sin while he calls himself a Christian. How is willful sin dangerous? Again, he is forced to mention this because its in his doctrine. Deliberate sin is ‘extremely dangerous’ (although he didn’t say you could forfeit your salvation) But how is that? If you can NEVER stop sinning, before or after Salvation, WHY would God count any sin against? The fallacy is in play here. You came in sinning, keep on sinning and Come Back sinning! |
Salvation is dependent upon repentance which is a turning from sin to God (Acts 2:36-41). If we continue to willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of salvation then we do not want Jesus to be Lord of our lives but merely saver of our eternity (Hebrew 10:26-27). Not that we completely cease to sin once we have given our lives to Christ, but our desire is to be obedient and mature in our faith with the spiritual man replacing the flesh (John 14:15-16). We are transformed as we allow God to change us and willful sin should diminish as evidence of the life in Christ (Romans 12:1-2).Finally, I would not ask, “Is someone saved?” That tends to separate salvation out of hell from Lordship on earth. I don’t believe God wants to
Biblically and historically a person is saved when they profess Jesus as savior and Lord and begin to follow Jesus on his way. Our salvation does not depend on anything we do or don’t do. Except for responding to the grace of God. I do not know a sinless Christian. Wesleyans – and Eastern Orthodox Christians – believe in a maturing process as we move through our life with Christ, and the goal/hope would be that our willful sinning would decrease over time. But salvation does not depend on stopping all willful sin. Call me If you want to discuss this more.
Jimmy, Nazarene Pastor
Response: |
First is the matter of chronological order.
God does not expect us to stop sinning first, and then seek salvation.
If that were the order then no one would get saved because we are powerless
over sin. We first seek God's salvation and as a result we receive God who has
the power to help us overcome sin.
2. Second, God does expect us to stop sinning after we are saved.
This may take some time, especially with nagging sins or addictions. God is
patient and will help us get the job done. 3. Third, you used the words
"willful sinning." That wording is critical -- willful sinning is much more
than unwillful sinning. Willful sinning is rebellious and deliberate.
Continuing to willfully and deliberately sin will in the long run squelch the
Holy Spirit in our lives which is extremely dangerous. Hopes that helps. By
the way, which "Dan" are you?
Pastor Don, Nazarene
Response: Here we go again. God does not expect the sin to Stop before or after Salvation. Just perhaps ‘willful’ sin. WHEN DOES He expect us to Stop, in heaven when we die? Rev22:11-15 doesn’t seem to indicate that. The VERY Last thing Jesus says in the Bible is: “Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy." "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood”. Rev22:11-15. So this Pastor is WAY off the mark here. I’d say what he is preaching is ‘Extremely Dangerous.’
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Next we are going to show a series of emails from pastors all over the country that clearly reveals the state of the present day gospel. If you are among them (holding to their views) it is our hope that something said here will alert you to the horrible nature of this message and CHANGE your ways BEFORE you go face the Judge. The Worse thing you can do is to Keep Pretending everything is fine in your churches and the moral decay in our society is NOT directly related to WHAT you people are preaching.
We will deal with each comment in a text box as usual:
I’m assuming you found me on the internet then, but why me? Anyways, to answer your question, I don’t think you have to change your ways for God to accept you. He loves you just the way you are (I mean, He created you). But if someone truly wants to become a Christian and follow Christ with their life, God does ask us to obey Him, and to obey Him means turning away from sin, thus a cleaning up process if you will. God knows that we are human and are not going to be perfect, but that also isn’t a get out of jail card to do whatever we want. There should be a difference in the way a person acts once they receive Christ. For me when I asked Christ into my life, at first I didn’t change my behavior, but for the first time I felt bad about what I was doing. That led to eventually changing the way I was acting, which I knew pleased God. I feel like I could go on and on, so I’ll stop here and let you respond. Please feel free to ask more questions or whatever. Thanks! -Clayton
Response:
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Thanks for your question. It’s a good one.
Thankfully, I can answer confidently that God stands ready and willing to
receive us JUST AS WE ARE if we will humble ourselves and come to Him with all
of our ‘stuff’ asking Him to change us. When we come to Him in faith, willing to
surrender to Jesus as our Leader, He promises to enter our lives and begin
changing us from the inside-out while also giving us the wonderful gifts of
forgiveness and eternal life. Pretty good deal, huh!
If you’d like to read about this in the Bible, just check out chapters like
Romans 3, Ephesians 2, and John 3. I believe God will shed His light on these
scriptures for you and lead you to Himself.
If we can be of any further help, please let us know!
Blessings!
Steve Benninger
Lead Pastor, NEW LIFE Church
Response: |
Dan,
The amazing thing about the gospel is that Jesus offers us forgiveness for our
‘uncleanness’. Romans talks about how none of us can clean ourselves up, so we
need God’s grace as it is expressed to us in the cross. Galatians is all about
how there is nothing we can do to add to God’s grace, so we need to stop trying.
So, to answer your question, Jesus is the one who forgives us: then He goes
about cleaning us as we allow him to... Hope this helps. Peace, Brian.
Response: WHERE in Romans does such a passage exist? That you Obeyed from your heart, Died to sin, walk in newness of life? (Rom8:16, 6:4-6) Our perhaps Rom12:1-2 where you PRESENT your body a LIVING Sacrifice to God for HOLY use! Paul makes more than CLEAR that the vessel is made useful by ‘Cleansing yourself’ (2Tim2:21) Scripture bares this out. (James2:21, 2Cor7:1) Even in the Old Testament the people had to Sanctify themselves through various ‘cleansings’ before coming to God for Mercy or sacrifice. It’s part of the Divine Plan. That man’s heart can be made Pure and New through Conviction, Repentance and Clearing, THEN come to God. |
Dan,
Oh no, God will receive you just as you are and he will do the cleaning once you surrender your will and life to Him. He loves you with an unconditional kind of love that would never condemn you where you are; He will just rejoice over the fact that you acknowledge Him as the Son of God, as the One who died for your sins and that He rose from the dead so you can rise above the deadness of your soul to live a life, a joyous and victorious life with Him beside you now and forever. It is the greatest life anyone can experience and the greatest decision you will ever make.
Cindy Clevenger
Response:
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Good Morning Dan,
Let me try to answer what I think you're asking in your question: We would all be in big trouble if God asked us to be clean and worthy of Him before we received Him. Our problem is that we all come to God dirty and covered with sin--to one degree or another--and there is nothing we could ever do to be worthy of what God offers and we need--eternal life. Fortunately for us, God doesn't ask us to be clean before we come to Him (Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.). He just asks us to come to Him (Matt. 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. ) Then with the help and power of the Holy Spirit, which God promises to every follower of Christ, we work hard to clean up our lives and live in obedience to God, out of gratefulness for what He's done for us. This is called sanctification. It comes after our salvation or trust in Christ. God saves us Himself, without anything we do...just our humble trust in God that Jesus paid the price we could never pay (salvation). Then we work together with God's Holy Spirit to grow in holiness and the image or example that Jesus set for us (sanctification).I hope that helps brother. As one who's experienced that forgiveness and change, I can tell you there's nothing else in the world like knowing I'm forgiven and God's helping me live right in this life and that I will one day be with Him in paradise forever. I pray you get to experience that too. Let me know if I can help anymore. Feel free to email again or call if you'd like to talk.
Pastor of Young Adults
The Chapel
135 Fir Hill
Akron, OH 44304
Response:
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Dear Dan,
Thanks for your email. I appreciate your question on such an important subject.
The thief on the cross is one of the few people we know will for sure be in
heaven. Jesus told him he would make it. He was not in any way "cleaned up" when
Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Him. If you have more questions
on this subject, I would be glad to answer them, or you could try
gotquestions.org which do a great job giving Biblically sound answers to
questions. Thanks again and I will pray that you continue to grow in your
understanding and walk with God.
in Christ, Randall C. DeVille
Response:
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Here is a PERFECT Description of the Present Day Preachers, written in 2nd Century AD: Do you, therefore, show me yourself,
whether you are not an adulterer, or a fornicator, or a thief, or a robber,
or a purloiner; whether you do not corrupt boys; whether you are not
insolent, or a slanderer, or passionate, or envious, or proud, or
supercilious; whether you are not a brawler, or covetous, or disobedient to
parents; and whether you do not sell your children; for to those who do
these things God is not manifest, unless they have first cleansed themselves
from all impurity. All these things, then, involve you in darkness, as when
a filmy defilement on the eyes prevents one from beholding the light of the
sun: thus also do iniquities, 0 man, involve you in darkness, so that you
cannot see God. For the Lord says, "Ye are of your father the devil; and the
lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and
abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a
lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it."(2) |
The False Prophets of Today Say:
1) Come to God ‘as you are, in your sin!’
2) He will Clean you up later and change your desires
3) He Does NOT expect you to stop sinning before or after Salvation!
4) Our Salvation is NOT dependant on anything we do or don’t do!
5) We Come to Him COVERED in sin.
The spirit of error Controls the Modern Day Churches! The False Prophets are YOUR pastors and teachers, the people you TRUST to teach your children and lead you into all truth! They are Preaching the EXACT Opposite of the Bible and most of you LOVE it. Among the LIES is ‘some truth’ but the Lamb is Really a DRAGON! Those of you who follow him will be Cast Away forever unless you Break free of his grasp and FLEE, in Broken hearted Repentance to the Lord!
Here’s an Example of Twisted Logic:
The question is not how clean you have to be
before God will receive you? God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus,
has paid the price to make you as clean as Jesus himself. All you have to do is
receive from God, specifically receive the love of Jesus Christ and declare him
as the ultimate authority in your life. Then, purely in gratitude with no
obligation whatsoever, you may want to do the things
that please God just as you would try to please anyone else in authority like a
parent, a coach, or a boss. Make sense?
Darin
Your email was forwarded to me as our Sr. Pastor is still on his summer study break. You ask a great question, one that many people struggle with. I believe that there’s really nothing we can do to “clean” ourselves up – that’s God’s job. And he wants to do it! According to the Bible, in 1 John 1:9 it says “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” All we are responsible for is confessing that we’ve blown it and turning away from those behaviors as best we can (and with God’s help!). In doing so, God forgives us and has already provided the means for that forgiveness (Jesus’ death and resurrection).
Response:
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